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Conversations about a Two States Solution.
You may be interested I reading the communication with few American friends of mine on the possibility of a two states solution. From the reading you could see the personal bias of each one of us.
Friend XX. I want a two state solution!
Those of us who feel as I do regarding the Palestine issue listen closely to the "the other side" and finally must ask the question: "What else do you have to offer"? If not statehood, what other option do you propose? Opponents of statehood seem to prefer an eternal situation of flux, disarray and tension.
Mat and I differ on certain issues in this drama. However, regarding the economic viability of a Palestinian state, I do agree with him. I don't expect to see "Palestine" a thriving, dynamic economic power in the region. But I do believe that Israel will be far better served by an aspiring neighbor next door which is struggling to succeed, rather than living adjacent to a smoldering population which lives with no hope and can see only an eternally bleak future.
Let me be clear. Gaza is an imponderable. I do not speak of Gaza. However, the lands of the West Bank offer an opportunity to treat this (Palestinian) problem. And ... if those who feel otherwise would care to offer an alternate solution, I'd love to hear it. But, no other remedy is ever forthcoming. Ever. The silence would suggest that this present condition of tension, and negativity is preferred by the ruling (Israeli) establishment. If this is so, it is to be regretted.
As you know, I was on your side for a number of years. Let’s say I had an epiphany. I awoke one day and reached the conclusion that this partition will never take place. It might have happened in years past, but the positions are too hardened now. Abbas, if he is confronted with an independent entity, wouldn’t know what to do: No infrastructure, no economy, no idea how a country is run and probably burdened with endemic graft and corruption like most Middle East countries . The West Bank Palestinians will be comparable to the “illegals” in this country, doing manual tasks for the Israelis.
I think Obama is pushing this settlement; he wants to make history and “go where no one has gone before”.
Your remarks remind me that most do gooders (respectfully) work as if answers must exist. Scientist keep on keeping on. Religionist invent explanations and repeat them so often they become dogma. Perhaps we must (should) consider that it could be possible that there are not enough answers to match up to all of the problems. Then what? I wont go there.
By M. Ginosar:
Dear friends, a Palestinian state can not be viable. Period. You Dave glorify them as capable of so many things that a regular nation, in miniature, is capable of. I wish it was the case. Many want a solution to free the Jews from this responsibility of controlling them, but it is not so easy.
Almost every one in Israel, including me, wish they wake up and start their peaceful, demilitarize, nation and finally peace will be all around. Not in the foreseeable future.
Palestinians are hated, that is true, hated by ALL THE ARAB STATES AROUND THERE. They have betrayed their Kuwait hosts and cooperated with Sadam. They were murdered by the hundreds afterwards. They love Sadam when every other nation feared him. They kill one another at a drop of a hut, their majority voted no end for many years that the killing of Israeli civilians is desirable and should continue.
You want peaceful coexistence from these people?
Egypt is finishing the erection of a MASSIVE steel WALL to stop Palestinians penetration from Gaza. The Egyptians have been hating them from before the 47 war.
And most important, they do not have the economical base to create a nation. The area is dry hills. Very little water sources. They farm by primitive means unproductively. If you say so let them modernize and be like Singapore; they do not have the many attributes the people in Singapore have: the dedication, hard work, adherence to law and order that require in a modern country.
The main reason Arafat was against agreeing to a real state is because he knew that they can not collect the garbage and clean the streets and all the other mundane things requiring a country to function. Bribery is so deep you could not do a thing without "protection."
They're oriented around their families more than any thing else.
They never were a unit- a Palestinian. They came from all over the Middle East when the Jews came with money 150 years ago. They do not have a unifying entity of positive culture, the only thing uniting them is hatred to Israel.
These are but few of their troubles.
I wish your dream would be a reality, it would be so nice to every one.
To Dr. Ginosar,
It would help me to know how many Israelis agree with you. What is your political party, if any? Are you a native to the area or are you an immigrant that stayed? Where did you live before becoming an Israeli? And, to me, more importantly, how would you go about changing the culture you describe as that of the Palestinians? Is American wasting time, lives and treasure supporting a two state solution? Should we withdraw all together and let the local parties do as they will? What advise do you have for us?
By M. Ginosar.
Go to my Israeli blog to find more info about my views.
I will say that I have been on all side of many issues, left and Right since I analyze issues carefully and try to minimize my bias. This is my nature, to dig deep, and to look for facts not normally seen. This is also my professional training and practice for decades. I look for facts.
BTW, most Israelis feel/believe like me. I am there often and communicate regularly and read a lot from all sides in Israel.
Again, to the wisher of the two state solution:
My dear XX
I am with you, I also want the Palestinians to be free, in a happy state giving good life to its people. It is good for every one.
I simply doubt that it is possible in the near future- until they have changed their attitude toward Israel- until they accept the existence of Israel and stop their hatful education and terrorist attacks too. It will take over a generation.
I want it to succeed, most Israelis wish them success, but how can it be done under the real life situation I mentioned before?
To Matania and XX,
All of our serious goals for world peace and a good balanced world economy can only be worked on and advanced by people of vision and good will. We must recognize completely the agonizing truths about the people and the cultural depravities and behavioral obscenities on going everywhere and through out history. But it is that very history that must give us the hope and courage to continue the struggle. We are better today than yesterday. Slavery of any and all kinds is decreasing not increasing. Good is the goal of every faction. It is the definition of that good that has driven such horrible behavior as the Islamist radical jihadist. Their belief system is so warped as to include the murder of non-believers as their way to paradise.
As much as I hate to say it, the almost universal belief in physical and spiritual miracles among religionist of all stripes gives each a finger to point at the insufferable ignorance of the other’s belief systems. I suggest that they will all learn, perhaps through osmosis and the incredible computer generated communication learning curves, but they will learn and they will better themselves through that learning. Including me, I hope.
But learning has been our best ticket to progress, and now that ticket is stronger by huge galloping dimensions even in just the last decade. I am talking across the world sitting at this computer. As a personal tool for communication, that is not two decades old.
Let’s send tons of TV’s and computers to Palestine, such that every child has web access. What would it be like if every child in the Middle East had web access, 24/7? Even pornography would teach them more than they have ever been allowed to know about everything there is to know.
That is the magic paradigm shift toward peace. Not in my time, certainly, but hopefully on yours.